Discussion Obi Wan Kenobi - TV Series

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re: changing Luke's name, during his exile on Tatooine

Yoda's Plan was for Luke to trigger a turn in Anakin, so Anakin could fulfill the prophecy and defeat palpatine. after all, Yoda HIMSELF faced off against the emperor, and Yoda HIMSELF could not defeat palpatine... Yoda knew (first hand) that the emperor was too strong for Luke. Luke wasn't even a "fully trained jedi knight" (yoda's words), he was just a padawan -- and I think we can all agree, sending a padawan to defeat the emperor, would be sheer insanity on Yoda's part -- Yoda's not that stupid. the whole plan was hinged upon Anakin turning against palpatine in ROTJ -- Luke was "bait" --- thats why they didn't change Luke's name.
That was not Yoda's plan at all. You are way off there.

Yoda hoped that Luke, by virtue of being the offspring of The Chosen One, would have the power to defeat Vader and find a way to kill the Emperor.

Neither he nor Kenobi believed there was anything of good Anakin left. It was only Luke that believed that and Kenobi even told that kind of thinking would get him killed. It was why he revealed the truth about Leia. To push Luke to be willing to kill.

To say Yoda was manipulating the situation to turn Anakin back to Lightseriously dilutes both Luke's compassion for his father and and Anakin's decision to save his son.
 
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re: resurrecting Maul.

consider Coulson: even though Phil Coulson was resurrected on television, there's a reason they won't allow Phil Coulson to appear in the MCU "movies" (outside of a flashback) -- Feige said, bringing coulson back, in the same storyline, would diminish the impact of his death. his death served a dramatic purpose in Avengers1, which would be undone by his resurrection within the SAME storyline -- if he were to suddenly re-appear in an MCU movie, then his sacrifice in Avengers1 would be meaningless. so... for the purpose of the ongoing story being told in the MCU movies... he needed to stay dead in the MCU movies. that's why he was ONLY resurrected on a TV show that was NOT required-viewing to enjoy those MCU movies.

by the same token, it's one thing to resurrect Maul for a cartoon kids show that is NOT required-viewing to enjoy the SW movies. but as soon as they included Maul in the Solo film, this DEFINED the Solo film as part of the "Filoni-verse" -- which is exactly why the movie-audiences rejected it -- the inclusion of Maul in the Solo movie was a giant red-flag, which screamed, in no uncertain terms, that this movie was NOT "required-viewing".

end-of-day, as long as we all recognize that the Disney+ live-action TV-shows shows are ALL just part of the cartoon Filoni-verse, then Maul will probably show up in every disney+ show (including Mando), and that's fine. that's exactly where this character belongs. but IMO it was a mistake to include him in a "movie" because that means the movies are now just extensions of the Filoni cartoons...

...and, I think we can all agree, the Filoni cartoons play to a smaller audience than the movies do. Rogue One sold itself (and was accepted) as an extension of the movies. it was meant to flow seamlessly into episode IV -- which is exactly why the larger audience embraced it so strongly. RO was accepted as a seamless extension of that SAME 'cinematic' storyline (where Maul is dead).... but on the other hand... Solo presented itself (and was accepted) as an extension of the Filoni cartoons -- the inclusion of Maul was a nail in that coffin -- which is exactly why it only played to the smaller audience.
(note: BOTH of these movies are 'preludes' to episode IV. so you'd think they would BOTH enjoy the same audience. but, after 40 years of EU, Fans can SMELL "non-required-viewing" a mile away.... it smells like.... Maul) :p LOL

(and/or Coulson) ;)

cheers!
Movie audience "rejected" Solo because Maul was in it?
 
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Maul or not Maul, Solo is underrated. It had its issues, but it held together better than the ST, and the main factors killing it at the theater registers had nothing to do with the movie itself.
 

CellBlock1138

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But, that can't give 'Solo' a pass, I'm afraid. I don't think it's underrated at all either. I think the general meh reaction to it was and is perfectly apt. It's an extremely mediocre outing, with a bad central character, that doesn't translate into the character we all know.
Ah, no, I think the character was okay given the fact that this Han is ten years younger and had, in the beginning, not seen much of the galaxy beyond Corellia. My main critique is still that the movie concentrated too much on putting a checkmark behind offhand remarks from the OT, instead of developing its own story. The foundational story arc was actually solid; but then the movie started with a weak opening (who cares for these White Worms, after all...), left out whole chunks of story (Han at the Imperial Academy), and condensed others (Lando and the Falcon). It should have been a trilogy from the start, with more "core" than just a heist story.

But I think this is heading towards the wrong topic again for this thread :cool:
 

Masterfett

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That was not Yoda's plan at all. You are way off there.

Yoda hoped that Luke, by virtue of being the offspring of The Chosen One, would have the power to defeat Vader and find a way to kill the Emperor.

To say Yoda was manipulating the situation to turn Anakin back to Lightseriously dilutes both Luke's compassion for his father and and Anakin's decision to save his son.
And I feel this is where you're mistaken, at least based on my POV and yours certainly are valid to you. However, I don't believe for a minute Yoda thought Luke was powerful enough to defeat either one. Let alone both, aside from possibly tugging on what little Humanity was left in Vader causing hum to turn on the Emperor. From Anakin's POV, he has a choice to side with his new found Son, or continue living under the rule of someone who swindled him 20 some years ago. Because you have to believe that 20 years of reflection has made him realize the error of his ways and how he gave into anger all while being manipulated.

Yoda's manipulation doesn't take anything away from a Father and Son connecting, Luke faith in his father paid off eventually but it could have just as easily not been the case. While part of me respects Yoda as grand master of the Jedi Order and all he has accomplished, he still comes off as "cold" because he only ever follows a certain antiquated code that brought down that very order. He places all his faith in the Force and expects other to do the same, he has no faith in the choices people make out of emotion. At least that is how it seems despite him displaying emotions too. And I still believe he's just as big manipulator as Palpatine, it's just that they play for different teams and Yoda "feels" he's on the good side so it's justified.

Not to mention if we take into account the Chosen One aspect, who was supposedly Anakin. Then Luke still never stood a chance if he defeated his Father, because it's Anakin's role to bring balance... Whatever that is supposed to mean given the fact it left Jedi in power over Sith, he wasn't supposed to tip the scales one way or the other. So in the end Anakin still didn't fulfill the Prophecy. IMO
 

Caas_Sandhri

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Not to mention if we take into account the Chosen One aspect, who was supposedly Anakin. Then Luke still never stood a chance if he defeated his Father, because it's Anakin's role to bring balance... Whatever that is supposed to mean given the fact it left Jedi in power over Sith, he wasn't supposed to tip the scales one way or the other. So in the end Anakin still didn't fulfill the Prophecy. IMO
This "Prophecy" stuff was one of the worst introductions in TPM; it was a load of crock from the very beginning, and the fact that it has ever given the weight it has now makes me mad.

We never learn who wrote that prophecy. (Master and Apprentice is the closest source we get, and that's still very vague.)
We never learn how the Jedi could ever believe in prophecies, if "always in motion, the future is", as Yoda himself says.
We never learn what "the balance of the Force" even is - "all Sith gone", "the dark Side gone", "all Force users gone", "light and dark have the same power", by now I heard it all...

We all in all learn very few facts about the Force in any source, or even the interpretations of the Jedi or Sith. The authors have thrown a lot of mystical things/places/beings at us - especially in the animated series - but failed to give us a foothold by which we could come to our own interpretations or conclusions. What exactly happens at this "source of the midichlorian" planet? Who are (or have been) the priestesses of the Force? Who were the beings on Mortis? What is the meaning of "living Force" vs. "universal/destiny/unifying Force"? Who is the Bendu? Where did the Force come from - it seemed so simple in ANH, but right now it's a mess. Lothwolves. Force dimension. Time travel. grrrraaaahrrrr

The question whether Anakin fulfilled the prophecy is completely meaningless, as the boundaries for this question have never been set.
 

Masterfett

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And I feel this is where you're mistaken, at least based on my POV and yours certainly are valid to you. However, I don't believe for a minute Yoda thought Luke was powerful enough to defeat either one. Let alone both, aside from possibly tugging on what little Humanity was left in Vader causing hum to turn on the Emperor. From Anakin's POV, he has a choice to side with his new found Son, or continue living under the rule of someone who swindled him 20 some years ago. Because you have to believe that 20 years of reflection has made him realize the error of his ways and how he gave into anger all while being manipulated.

Yoda's manipulation doesn't take anything away from a Father and Son connecting, Luke faith in his father paid off eventually but it could have just as easily not been the case. While part of me respects Yoda as grand master of the Jedi Order and all he has accomplished, he still comes off as "cold" because he only ever follows a certain antiquated code that brought down that very order. He places all his faith in the Force and expects other to do the same, he has no faith in the choices people make out of emotion. At least that is how it seems despite him displaying emotions too. And I still believe he's just as big manipulator as Palpatine, it's just that they play for different teams and Yoda "feels" he's on the good side so it's justified.

Not to mention if we take into account the Chosen One aspect, who was supposedly Anakin. Then Luke still never stood a chance if he defeated his Father, because it's Anakin's role to bring balance... Whatever that is supposed to mean given the fact it left Jedi in power over Sith, he wasn't supposed to tip the scales one way or the other. So in the end Anakin still didn't fulfill the Prophecy. IMO
Most of the Jedi do come across as cold. They show little in the way of compassion and maim/kill without a second thought.

There is nothing in the OT, or in the PT, that supports the idea that Yoda was counting on Anakin getting the warm and fuzzies over Luke. In fact both Yoda and Kenobi are fairly single minded that Vader has to die and Kenobi even tells Luke there is nothing of Anakin left.

In TESB Yoda most certainly didn't think Luke was ready for Vader but in ROTJ they had no choice - but Luke had made a massive leap in his abilities and understanding of the Force. And let us not forget that he did actually defeat Vader.

Both of them? I don't think they expected that Luke would face them both at the same time. And how did they expect him to take on Palpatine? The OT doesn't tell us and I used to think that they had hoped Luke could train Leia but after the PT I think they simply hoped that Luke had inherit some of the Chosen One Juice and that he could do the job Anakin failed to do. Also maybe they didn't think he could which was why they kept the sister out of it. Plan B.

Out of universe though, Luke taking on the Emperor alone was never on the cards I think. Prior to his insane decision to end it all with ROTJ, Luke was to defeat/redeem Vader/Anakin in a one-to-one battle with the Rebels gaining the upper hand on the Empire and the real Episode VII would have been Luke tracking down his sister Nelith (who is the basis for) with the Emperor taking a more hands approach to squashing his enemies (this taking Vader's place a main Big Bad) with the eventual showdown being the twins vs. Palps. Another idea considered was that in ROTJ that Ghost Kenobi & Ghost Yoda would come to Luke's aid. So it doesn't seem anyone was powerful enough to take on the Emperor alone except Anakin.

It was always clear that even the parts of Abrams films that were not remakes were just taken direct from the EU and abandoned Lucas stories. I think even the defecting stormtrooper was Lucas' idea for the original ST. I didn't see anything in TLJ that stood out as an old Lucas idea but after typing about this I remember that the Imperial Guards in ROTJ were original meant to be low level Force users and involved somehow in the duel. I love the sword fight in TLJ but how cool would it have been to have Luke and Vader/Anakin (in Vader armour) having that fight wither red robed warriors.

I really hope that is Rian Johnson's own idea though.
 
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